I'll put this here for discussion

    Heard about this guy on the Mazda forum, heres the link to the civic forum that pics where posted on.

    Because low car

Edited by neubreed - 16 July 2011 at 4:46am

loudest03cavi wrote: Seen that on jalopnik a while back. I think its unnecessary and overkill to ban him from car clubs. I'm really interested in knowing how he was endangering other peoples lives? I can see his own, or MAYBE the semi drivers, Maybe. He's just a mentally unstable individual, with a dash of crazy, lol. I applaud his craziness

I completely disagree with your entire stance on this.

Car clubs get enough crap just for being a car club. Adding stupidity into the mix from one fool who thinks it's great to risk his life and others and you have the reflection of that upon the entire representation of the car club.

He was absolutely positively endangering the life of the truck driver and the idiot taking the pictures of the entire thing. If the truck had to make an emergency stop, the Miata would of been lodged under the back end of the drive wheels which could cause the truck driver to lose control. Nine times out of ten, that's a game over situation which would of looked like this (probably worse though):



Really? You applaud the idiocy that has the potential of this end result if not worse??

Remember the dumbass over the summer of 2009 that was speeding around the i75 curve just before 9 mile? His car bumped a diesel tanker which ultimately exploded and took out the entire 9 mile i75 overpass that was just rebuilt a year earlier. sh*t happens!! Thankfully it didn't with the Miata idiot, but the perfect storm was in place if one single variable didn't line up.

Another one for you. Just recently, a 19 year old girl was drag racing against another car on I-94. She cut off a semi-truck which then lost control, slammed into the exterior wall of a Kroger, exploded, and killed the driver who has a wife and 9 year old at home. Negligent homicide is on the table for the drag racer who absolutely deserves every bit of that punishment, if not more for taking the life of someone else minding their own business and obeying the rules of the road.

My opinion? He got what he deserved by being exiled from his car club. This fool should at least lose his license as well. The pictures are plenty enough evidence to support a wreckless driving conviction. On the contrary, I'm all for people being stupid as long as they only endanger themselves and not the lives of others.

    

loudest03cavi wrote: My point is, regardless of the absolute mindlessness, and sheer recklessness of his actions. NOTHING became of it.

A guy fires a bullet at someone and misses. "NOTHING became of it." Should he not be punished? You'll argue that the fool did not intend to hurt someone like the person in my analogy obvious would. Remember, according to the law, intent does not negate negligence, recklessness, or strict liability. RESPONSIBILITY is something we all have as living beings on this earth. We have laws in place to uphold the responsibility not to commit physical harm to one another.

Regardless of how you take my analogy, this was not your original point if you "applaud his craziness"......you're backpedaling.

loudest03cavi wrote: The situation you described is completely unrelated.

Bullsh*t. Cause and effect. In both of my examples, some asshat came along and disrupted a completely stable situation. In the second example, an innocent lost their life because of the asshat. Totally related to the conversation and 100% relevant.

loudest03cavi wrote: The fact is, accidents happen all of the time. The situation where the tanker was "bumped"... for god sake it would take a school bus to take out a semi. The semi driver panicked and lost control. Actually, in both situations your described the semi driver panicked and lost control.

Really? You're not blaming the cause of my two examples as being at fault for the accidents?!?! How do you know what it takes to make a semi lose control? How do you know what it takes to keep them under control? I could care less what you know about controlling a semi and/or physics because the facts have been stated. Idiots driving cars bumped/hit/interrupted semi trucks which consequently lost control. In one example, the semi driver died. Facts.

loudest03cavi wrote: People drive like asses all the time. I get cut off ALL THE TIME... I don't swerve like a dumb ass. If your going to rule with an iron fist on this subject, then anyone who has ever exceeded the speed limit, didn't use a turn signal, stopped short, accelerated hard from a stop, or any other "wreck less driving" actions should automatically loose their license. And probably pay $100's in fines, and you know, ultimately just take their own life...

People who get caught breaking the law, should accept the consequences. The same should go for the idiot in this article who has been documented committing the moving violation. He should lose his license for putting other lives at risk (wreckless driving).

loudest03cavi wrote: Again, completely unrelated. Obviously if you point a weapon at someone and fire, you had intent. Should a deer or squirrel be held accountable for its actions if it jumps in front of a moving car? Clearly by your statements, negligence is cause for intent, so the deer must have intended to cause damage to a vehicle.

You don't think the Miata guy intended on going under the truck knowing that it was dangerous to the point of potentially causing bodily harm to individuals other than himself? Guess what? Even if he really was that dense of a person, ignorance is punishable by law. It's pure common sense that his stunt was stupid and could potentially hurt other people. It may not have looked like it at the time to this guy, but he should have known better. Most people in the world do.

You're taking out of context my point by replacing a human that has a conscious with an animal that has no ability to comprehend any consequence. Try using a human to fight this point. Squirrels don't drive cars.

loudest03cavi wrote: You end your sentence in the word "Facts" yet, are not willing to look at them. A vehicle speeding down a freeway (even assuming the car weighed 2 tons) and plowed into a semi, it could NEVER take it out. Simple physics. A loaded semi has a gross weight of 80,000 lbs. Human reaction was to blame.

Guess what? Example #2 with the truck driver who died had empty pop cans in the back. Nowhere near 80,000lbs....

I'm absolutely willing to look at facts, but I've got a feeling you're not a accident investigator, a physicist, or a semi-truck driver. Because of this, you're speculating from that side of the argument.

loudest03cavi wrote: Not to mention that truckers also tend to be driving extremely long hours and sometimes can tend to be wreckless as well. I have seen many one-vehicle accidents involving a semi. In fact, there is a lot of evidence to show that driver (semi) fatigue is a major cause of accidents with tractor-trailers. Look it up.

I'm not questioning fatigue on behalf of drivers on the road and their ability to react to an emergency situation. I was in a car accident back in 2000 when my friend's S10 got rear ended by a fully loaded semi with a guy behind the wheel that was driving all night. Had the driver not of finally stepped on the brakes, my friend and I would have been crushed to death between the semi and another full-size truck in front of us. I have a picture of the S10 somewhere on my server. I'll have to dig it up.

Nowhere in my arguments have I stated that just the speeder, collision causer, etc. is the ONLY person at fault. What I'm trying to wrap my head around is that you can't come to terms with the FACT that in both of my examples, the accidents would never have happened if that single individual did not come in contact with the semi truck! Again, cause and effect.

loudest03cavi wrote: You know, the reckless (proper spelling, just found that out) driving statutes are extremely vague (MCL 257.626a-c), So much so that it's quite often over-applied. I should know, I have a reckless driving on my record... not from endangering the lives of others on the road way, I wrapped a F-150 around a tree. At 35mph. Stone cold sober. I just lost control and hit a tree.

I agree that there's plenty of laws out there that are over-applied. There's not enough information in your real life example to argue for or against that topic. In the case of the Miata guy, the law hasn't been applied at all (from what we know from the internet hearsay and news articles). That's what I have a problem with.

loudest03cavi wrote: Basically, this conversation is completely pointless since your entire argument is based on speculation. What your arguing for, didn't happen.

It DID happen. It's all over the internet in pictures! I'm not arguing for negligent homicide, manslaughter or anything like that. I've said it a dozen times (albeit not spelled correctly)......reckless driving.

Here's what I'm arguing for:

We have rules of the road and laws to deter people from behaving like fools and putting other people's live's at risk. If this Miata guy isn't charged with reckless driving (thank you for the spelling correction), it's a true shame. He's been caught on camera and there's plenty of information on his identity that can be used to prosecute him. Knowing the internet and how lemming-like people are on it, somebody else is going to do this same stunt. The next person to do it may not be as lucky and hopefully nobody else by-standing in other cars and/or driving the semi get hurt.

The car club distanced themselves from this guy because they have enough to deal with on their own. Having his car plastered all over the internet and people knowing which car club he belong to purely isn't good PR. Go ahead. Do something really stupid at a J-BOM meeting or some other car club/association event. I guarantee you won't get invited back because your actions would have consequences that are aimed toward the entire club/association as a whole.

loudest03cavi wrote: Oh, and can you explain in further detail how I'm back-peddling? I am truly curious.

The three original points I derived from your comments are:

1. He shouldn't of been banned from car clubs.
2. He was only endangering his own life and possibly the semi-truck driver's.
3. You applaud his craziness.

You then say "My point is, regardless of the absolute mindlessness, and sheer recklessness of his actions. NOTHING became of it."

Your intial point #3 hasn't directly come up since you first said it. The statement I just quoted makes it look like you think his craziness is ok ONLY because nothing bad happened in this situation. You said this only after I responded saying his acts were stupid and reckless, which is why I said you're backpedaling.

You think (or at least you did before I started arguing) what he did is applaudable in some form or fashion, which confirms my lemming-like argument above. I hate to say it, but if you think what he's done is commendable in any way, you really shouldn't be on this forum. J-BOM has been pretty sensitive about this in the past, for fear of tarnishing public image...a fear that all car clubs deal with at one time or another. The same sentiment can be applied to street racing in general. It isn't talked about on here because J-BOM has never wanted a part in it.


Also, I'm arguing this point based off of another accident in my past that involved the loss of life and justice not being upheld. I'd rather not get into it any further though.

EDIT: Dammit, I screwed up the quote brackets. I did not modify any of my argument.

Edited by Mr. Pute - 19 July 2011 at 6:39am

fireshroom wrote:

    

I stand corrected. That squirrel is begging for a reckless driving ticket. lol

Don't apologize for posting an interesting topic that has created an interesting debate.

I'm done with the quote game since you've decided to take mine out of context.

Publicly condoning an illegal act while within the confines (this forum in our case) of an organization/company is generally not a good thing. It's even worse if you're a member or employee. Plenty of people have been thrown out of organizations, companies, and even J-BOM for doing/saying stupid things. With that, I wouldn't be surprised if the admin of this board swept this thread under the rug and out of plain site if this conversation escalates any further (I doubt it will though).

I'm generalizing when I say this. No car club that wants to be successful wants public negativity. Hell, no car club that wants to be left to go about their own business alone wants public negativity. If your club members do dangerous stunts and one of them kills an innocent person, the club is flat out done. It's even worse if those stunts are bragged about on a forum that's open to the public to read. If the guy who killed the innocent person lives, his/her conviction and sentence are that much more solidified thanks to the forum bragging. If the accident is televised and the club is brought up in the news, it is human instinct to associate the killing with the club as a whole...especially if such stunts are talked about on their forum. Harassment to other club members ensues in the form of road rage and vandalism of their cars/houses until the club dissolves and the news drops the story.

The potential of this happening is precisely why the car club distanced them self from the Miata guy. This is also what I mean by "bad PR".

No offense taken.

Its freedom of association Jack, a group can ban anyone they want for whatever they want. They have chosen not to associate with him for his actions.
I would guess that it would be a similar situation if an anti-gay group/forum had a member post pictures of himself having gay sex... he would be banned at minimum.

And there would be nothing wrong with that. The government cannot make laws excluding people for their thoughts/actions (if legal) but individuals/groups definitely can. This guy represented himself in a bad light in the opinion of the group and they dealt with it. Their actions were in no way wrong. If you feel they were, start a group yourself and invite him to join then the two of you can ban anyone who refuses to drive under semi trailers.

Also you are way off in your assessment that "it would take a school bus". That statement is completely wrong. Any vehicle at speed is a highly dynamic device. Add a curved road into the mixed and its even worse.
In the case of the turning semi, probably 85-90% of all available tire traction is being used to resist sliding sideways. Add a sudden "bump" in any direction of even just a few hundred pounds and 100% is suddenly and catastrophically exceeded.
If you've ever played GTA and spun the car ahead of you around by bumping it on the rear side corner you have seen how easy it is to do. I used a videogame as a common example many have seen. I can assure you, that feature is very accurately depicted in the game. Its incredibly easy to cause any vehicle to slide out of control in that way.

Your "applause" for the guy is also uncalled for and shows genuine immaturity.
If in 17yrs, your kid drove home blind drunk from some random event without getting arrested or having any accidents, would you feel the same at that moment? If you don't "applaud" and give congratulations for doing it, it would seem you are a hypocrite. Then if a youtube video of the drive were posted, I'm sure you would forward it to everyone you know with pride.

-edit for spelling nazis



Edited by protomec - 21 July 2011 at 3:11am

What you aren't getting is the societal responsibility that this guy has no respect for.

The guy is an idiot. There are a number of different factors that come into effect any small incidence could cause as the picture above indicates...a 2000 lbs car forced the disruption of the 80,000 semi. This dosen';t even include the materials that came off the car and the danger that imposed to the people around him.

As for the brining in your child it is a perfectly acceptable inclusion as as far as we are concerned that person is just as random as the jack-ass in the Miata. So how would you respond if your child got lucky and came home drunk? How would you feel if someone shot at one of your loved one and missed? this guy basically did the same thing he took a shot at something that could have caused physical harm to not only himslef bu the people around him that had no control over his actions.

A couple years back we had a person attend a meeting we had in Kensington Metro Park. The guy got pissed when I told him since he was under 21 he wasn't drinking beer, I got A LOT OF GRIEF for it, but it is a responsibility that letting someone drink and then get behind the wheel that society should take up.

I hope that this idiot gets his licesne pulled and he gets charged for reckless endangerment.

Oh he saw it in a movie and thought it would be cool to do...I just saw Angelina Jolie make a bullet fly in a curved path in "Wanted" come stand in front of me and let me try it....you might not get hurt cause I will miss but it is still stupid to do it.

As for applauding him it just reinforces that there is a simple responsibility and a common downgrading of personal responsibility by applauding him you (and others who do the same) encourage this kind of reckless behavior. Sorry but the Jackass Movies have filled more ER beds then they should be allowed to and these kind of stunts will just do more.

As for your response about how a club gets hurt...before your time Xceed used to have a Friday night meet..guess what they had to be cancelled by asshats who would do burn outs and bring the cops down on the whole group. Eventually it was more of these guys coming around and so the entire event was cancelled to keep the club out of trouble as it was regarding as an endorsement that the meets continued even though everyone would degrade the person.

^ Oh come on Joe! Don't take away our fun!

Since you insist on dragging my child into this conversation...

If my son drove home drunk, I think I would say "Thank god you made it home alive" and something along the lines of "dumbass blah blah blah could have been seriously injured blah blah".

Truthfully, its hard to say where that would go, as it never happened.

One thing is for sure though, I wouldn't be driving down to the cop shop to turn him in for DUI.

I guess my question is - where do you draw the line on "social responsibility"?